We Had 10,000 Users & the App Was Crashing Every Day

This episode is a real look at what happens when growth comes before you’re ready for it.

I sat down with Nicola to talk about what it actually felt like building her business while everything was moving fast on the outside… and breaking behind the scenes.

Because from the outside, hitting milestones like 10,000 users looks like progress.

But what people don’t see is what comes with that.

The pressure. The expectation. The reality of trying to hold something together while it’s still being built.

Nicola shares what it was like navigating a stage where the business was growing, but the systems weren’t keeping up. Where things were going wrong in real time, and there wasn’t a clear roadmap for how to fix it.

We talk about the moments where quitting would have been easier. The decisions you have to make without having all the answers. And what it really takes to keep going when things aren’t working the way you expected.

This conversation is not about the highlight reel.

It’s about the part where things feel unstable, uncertain, and harder than you thought they would be.

We get into:

•  What growth actually looks like behind the scenes 
•  The pressure of scaling before everything is ready 
•  Dealing with things breaking while still pushing forward 
•  Why the hardest part is often after things start “working” 
•  Choosing to continue when quitting feels easier 

If you’re building something right now and it feels like you’re constantly figuring it out as you go, this episode will hit.

Because this is what it really looks like when things start to grow… and nothing feels fully in control.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you follow Perls of Wisdom, so you never miss a conversation about what it really takes to build a business.

This podcast is all about the messy middle. The part nobody talks about. The lessons, mistakes, and breakthroughs that happen while you are still figuring it out.

If this episode helped you, I would love it if you could share it with a founder friend or tag me on social media so I can see you are listening.

You can find me here:
 Instagram: @itsisobelperl
LinkedIn: Isobel Perl
YouTube: Isobel Perl
Website: perlsinbusiness.com

If there is a founder you would love me to interview, or a topic you want covered, send me a message. I read more than you would think.

And remember:

You do not need to feel ready; you just need to decide to start.

Love Isobel x

Transcript

Intro & trailer

SPEAKER_02 0:00

It's so much easier to quit sometimes, yeah, than it is to keep going. Bam, we've got 10,000 users and the app's crashing every single day. Felt lost. Like so lost. And looking back, I think that's one of the hardest moments of my whole journey.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome to Pearls of Wisdom, the podcast where we talk all about the messy middle of starting a business. And in today's episode, I'm talking with Nicola, the co-founder of Click. And if you haven't heard of Click, it is a community app that is bringing people from the URL to the IRL. Think book clubs, run clubs, supper clubs, they are all there on the app. So if you don't have it downloaded, please go away and check it out. And I really hope you enjoy this episode today with Nicola. Don't forget to like, comment, subscribe to this channel. And if there are any other founders that you would like me to interview, please let me know in the comments below, and I'll get them on for season two.

Meet Nicola — founder of Clic

SPEAKER_01 1:03

I'm here with Nicola, the founder of Click. Nicola, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. Me too. So I have a light opener for you, which is what is the most chaotic thing that's happened to you this week? Oh gosh. Well, it's only Tuesday. It's only Tuesday.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

We can go back last week. We can go back to last week. Okay. I was gonna say have to pick today or yesterday. I feel like everything's so chaotic at the moment. I think when you're running a business, there's always some form of chaos. I think being a founder, you wear so many hats, and that's sometimes a blessing and a curse because it's so exciting. Yeah. But the same time, one minute you're doing a financial spreadsheet, then you're recording a podcast, then you're creating content, then you're doing an investment deck, then you're replying to emails all within the same day. So it feels like constant chaos. Yes. So it's not really a standout chaotic moment, it is just every day. If yeah, if I could have one word that describes my days, it usually is chaos.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Yeah, I feel like every founder relates to that. I definitely do.

What is Clic?

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Um, and so can you give me a uh brief elevator pitch as to what Click is?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yes, so Click is a social networking and community app. So we're all about connecting like-minded people through interest-based communities and in-person events. Really passionate about how do we get people out from behind the phone. So, how do we get people meeting new people, trying new things, pushing themselves out of their comfort zone, and just finding communities and events to go to? It's that all-in-one tool for finding communities, but then also for community leaders to manage, market, and monetize their community all in one place.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, it's amazing. I genuinely think it's such a such a needed platform for connection. I feel like it's something that we're really, really lacking in the in 2025. Is that personal connection?

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Yeah, and when we had the idea for Click, was because I wanted to meet people. When I literally sat down, got my phone out, and was looking at all these apps, and I was like, wait a minute, these are all so transactional, yeah, so outdated, so like, I don't know, you just didn't want to be on it. I don't want to be matching with people on my BFF on all these platforms, and then at the same time, you've got Facebook groups where that's where people are looking for a connection. You move to a new city and you look for like girls in London on Facebook, but a lot of people don't have Facebook anymore, it's so outdated. So it just made sense, and no one's really become that home of community, and we really want to be the home of community of if you're looking to join communities or looking to start community, or if your brand or an influencer looking to get involved with the community as well, everything's in one place for you.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yeah, I love it. No, it's honestly it's it's fantastic. Um, so going back before click, I've heard you say before that being a founder wasn't necessarily in your DNA. What changed that?

SPEAKER_02 3:46

I think going travelling. So when I was younger, I did not know what I wanted to do with my life. I went to university, I quit after three weeks. I was just like, this is just not for me. I've always been really good at quitting, which I actually have realised as I've got older, it's a skill because you don't force yourself to do things you don't want to do. Whereas at the time I was like, Am I a failure? My parents are gonna hate me, whatever it is because I don't want to be here, and it's what everyone else was doing. And I had no plan, I didn't know what I wanted to do, so I just went and got a regular job. Was just like working in this office whilst all my friends were at uni, felt very, very lost, and I was like, I need to get out of where I live, I need to get out of the situation, and I want to go travelling, and I do believe that completely changed my life because being 20, I think when we're 20 or 21, and booking a one-way flight to the other side of the world, it's probably one of the most scariest things you can do. It's the most exciting, yes, but you've never done anything like that before. I've never been outside of Europe for a star. Then to book a one-way flight to Thailand, there's so many things that you need to think about. But was very lucky that I could do it with my partner Jason, and we had each other, and my parents weren't the happiest about it. But I just booked the flight. I'm just gonna go. Yeah, I needed to get out, and I do believe that opened my eyes to what there is out there in the world, and opened my eyes to okay, you can do anything you want to do, you can be anything. And I really got into like self-help stuff whilst I was out there. I think because you have so much free time, yeah. You're always reading, you're always listening to podcasts, listening to music, that type of thing. And I just got really into like self-help books, podcasts, like manifest, Rux and FC, all these amazing people, and it just really opened my eyes to being like you can create your own destiny, but also I think the reason that I was like that was because I took myself away from everything that I knew and everyone that I knew, so you can kind of reinvent yourself and start again.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

I love that 100%. I think it's there's such a set path that we're expected to take, especially when it's like you go to school, you go to university, you get a job, and I I completely resonate with that. Like, I'm also the person that quits after three weeks, and I think there's such power in that. Like, you definitely at the first you're like, What's wrong with me? But I think it's a very brave thing to do to know that this isn't the right path for me and to have nothing to fall back on. So, yeah, I think it's really, really powerful. It's a powerful move to

The first business — beauty in Melbourne

SPEAKER_01 6:10

make. Um, so click is your second business. Tell me about the first.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah, so that actually came about whilst we were travelling. So we did our, I think it was about three or four months in Southeast Asia. The plan was to potentially come home after that, but we had some friends that were going to Australia, and we're like, okay, we're already this side of the world, why not go there? Ended up living in Melbourne for two years, and in that time, I was a freelance makeup artist. So I was working in kind of like their version of Sephora, doing makeup, and then I was doing freelancing on the side, and that was my first taste of entrepreneurship, kind of working for yourself, being a freelancer. I also realised how hard it is to work for yourself and do all these things. I was like, Whoa, I've got to market myself, I've got to get my own bookings, I've got to do all my accounts, everything. I was like, wow, this is a lot, but also it gave me the freedom that I'd always wanted. I feel like I've never really been a typical nine to five person. I just didn't enjoy having that set amount of time, and I just wanted to do my own thing, but I didn't know what it was. So that was kind of my first taste into it. And whilst I was working, I I'd say I struggled a little bit to get work because I didn't know anyone. Yeah, I'm an expert from a different country living in a city where I had what, three my boyfriend and two friends. Just trying to build my own network, build my own friends, but then I was like, I also need to get clients, and the beauty industry is such a word of mouth industry. If you think about the people that you go to, it's probably because a friend's been or your mum's been or something. Every single one, yeah. Social media wasn't what it was then, so you'd be posting on socials, but you wouldn't really be getting much traction. I started spending money on ads, and it was like the money that I'm making, I'm spending it to market myself. Why is there not a platform I could put my services on? And that's where our first business was born. So it's a beauty booking platform for freelance beauty professionals because also what I found was people that worked in salons or people that owned the salons got all the help. Yeah. So they had all the platforms, they had all the tech, but if you're a freelancer, there was nothing you could put your services on. And there's things like Airbnb and everything out in the world, but there was nothing really for the beauty industry. So I came home to Jason one day with this idea, and he was like, Oh, look, see if there's anything out there for you to put your services on. And he was looking, there was nothing really in Australia. Looked in the UK and there wasn't really anything. And we literally just looked at each other and were like, maybe we can do this. We'd had a few ideas before. Yeah. Like we had an idea for like a clothing brand, for this, for that. We were just like messing around with different ideas because we both knew we wanted to do something. We didn't really knew we wanted to do something together. I don't think that formed until a little bit later. When we had this idea, it just felt like I don't know if you find this with your business. When you have the idea, it's a slight bulb moment. You can't get out of your head, you're like living and breathing it already. And to me, I was like, if I don't try this, I'll probably regret it.

Leaving the career path & moving back to the UK

SPEAKER_02 9:00

But if I do try it and it fails, at least I've tried it. Yeah. And also, again, we're away from friends or away from family, no outside noise. Let's just try and do it ourselves. It's incredible. Yeah, that's true. And we knew um, we knew we were coming back to the UK. So also again had nothing to fall back on, didn't have a job, yeah, didn't have anything, was lucky enough to go live with our parents again. So it was just the perfect time to start and then try it. Honestly, I just I love that.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

You're like, doesn't exist. Why don't we create it? Yeah, yeah. Which is very delusional. Is the solulu. Like I think as founders, you have to be a little bit delusional because the amount of people that just try and tell you it's not gonna happen, it's not gonna work, you need this amount of money, like you can't bootstrap that. Yeah, and it's like actually, hold on, like stop telling me no, let's just give it a go. And I think the the point that you made where you said how um you didn't want to look back and regret it. I remember that one I was the exact same. I was like, oh my god, I do not want to be on my deathbed in my old grand old age and think, oh, what would have happened if I just gave that a go? And so, yeah, power to you.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

I think that's incredible. Worst nightmare, and for us it was it was a massive risk because one, we didn't know how to start business, hadn't even been to university, didn't really know anything about business, didn't know anyone that had a business. Also didn't really have that much money at that time. Like we'd been saving, but we'd been saving to travel before we came home. I think we spent £3,000 to set up the business pretty much, and that was buying a MacBook and getting a very basic website developed, and then like all the bits and bobs that you need to do. Epic. And not a lot of people try and start a business with £3,000. So you think it's not possible because you think you need to have all this money and all this investment and all this knowledge. But in my head, I was like, if these people that are entrepreneurs that we look up to, they started from somewhere. If they can do it, why can't we? And that's that delusion that does actually really help you.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah, exactly. It definitely works. And then how was it always the plan to sell that business? Or like how did that come about?

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Yeah, it wasn't at all. I think one, I didn't even know you could get investment of a business. Honestly, no, yeah, didn't even know. So we had it for it was two years, and the business really took off after COVID. I think because the industry massively changed before COVID, people went to the salons, that was just like second nature to them. After COVID, so many people shut down the salons, wanted a side hustle, they're doing nails on the side of their full-time job. But also, as a customer, you're more likely to maybe book a freelancer or book someone in your local area to support them. Yeah. Because we didn't want to support the chains and all that kind of thing. So it really took off and it was named one of the fastest growing like PT marketplaces in 2021, 2022, maybe? I don't know. One of the two, one of them, one of them, which was amazing and really kind of like solidified us, but again, still like working out of our parents' house, still doing our parents' bedrooms, which gave us such a drive to get out in a way. But yeah,

Getting acquired & the exit

SPEAKER_02 12:00

we had that for it was two years, and then we were looking for investment. I think just from being on LinkedIn, listening to podcasts or the startup world, like okay, investments maybe the next step. We've spent all of our savings on this, we need an injection of cash to get to that next level. We want to hire, we want to do all these cool things, we want to get out of our parents' house. So started trying to raise investment. And looking back, I think that's one of the hardest moments of my whole journey because one, we were so early stages, yeah, really. Two, I feel like the economy was going through a lot of things. Very uncertain. It was beauty, and you're talking to men who are investors who don't get it. I'm sure you hold these things. Very frustrating. So it was felt like the odds were stacked against us constantly, but we just kept going and going and going and going. And in the end, we ended up getting an offer for a partial acquisition. Wow. Which wasn't even in the plans, didn't even know that was possible. The Revolution Beauty, the makeup brand, they were like, we want to acquire you, we want to bring you in-house, we want to move down to London, office, team, yeah, absolutely everything. You don't need to raise money, we'll fund the whole thing for you, we'll bought the tech. It was everything.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

So it was just like slotting into their ecosystem, which was an absolute no-brainer for the situation that we were in, the stage we were in. So yeah, next, I think it was two weeks later, we were like moving down to London, getting a flat, all of these things. It felt like our life changed overnight. And then we worked with them for a year, right? And then we decided to sell the remaining shares after. Yeah. So it was a three-year journey in total, which is quite short-lived for business. We packed a lot.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

I can imagine. A lot of learnings. I can so imagine. And when when you sold it, how how did that moment feel? Were you just like was it were you relieved? Were you happy?

SPEAKER_02 13:47

It's always it's a sweet, it's always an anti-climax. Really? In a way, because I think you build up to these moments so much, yeah, and they happen, and then you're like, what next? Yeah. Constantly. I don't know if that's just me or I think it's an entrepreneur. I was gonna say it's ever being like, What's what's next, what's next, and you don't really celebrate. So, in a way, the journey was way more exciting than the final destination for us.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

What they say though, isn't it? It's the journey, not the destination. It's it's that's so interesting to hear. Because I feel there are so many founders out there whose end goal is like get acquired or sell, and actually it's it's do it's the doing it that gives you all that purpose and that drive. And and so I guess the next question is did you feel like when you sold it you almost lost a part of who you were as a person?

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Definitely, because like when you go to an event and introduce yourself in a room, you're like, Oh, I'm Nicola, I'm the founder of. Yeah, and then I go to an event and I'm like, Oh, I'm Nicola, and like what do you do? And I'm like, nothing, I don't do anything. Early retirement for now. Literally, I wish. But no, it was you do feel like you've lost a part of you, and also because you claim it as your baby, it is your baby. But I was like, No, the baby's grown up now, the baby's gone to school, it's gone to college, it's doing its own thing, but it still will be your baby. And I look back on it so fondly because one learned so much from it, and I look back and I'm like, wow, I can't believe we did all of that within three years. But then that period afterwards, it felt lost, like so lost. I was like, what am I gonna do now? Don't know what we're gonna do, like, don't really know what I'm passionate about, don't really know if I have any other ideas. I think I will, but I don't really know. So we went traveling.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

I was gonna say, Yeah, what did you do? Went loving.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Because go take yourself out your environment. No, yeah, it's not a good thing. If you're getting stuck, yeah, the best thing you can do is take yourself out your environment. I'm not saying that you need to go and travel or go to a different country or whatever, but if you stay in that same environment, then you're never gonna get new ideas and there's gonna be no creativity, you're just gonna feel stagnant, you're gonna be comparing yourself to what your friend's doing and everyone else is doing. So we're like, okay, no, let's go away, just switch our phones off, not speak to anyone and see

Four months between businesses — starting Clic

SPEAKER_02 16:01

see what happened. And then I think there was four months between both businesses. Oh wow, yeah. Straight into click because we just had this itch. I was like, I'm bored, we need something to do. Like, traveling is amazing, but you you can always travel at some point, it's always gonna be there. Yeah, the countries aren't disappearing, but well, they might do, but the businesses they can disappear. Yeah, you can have that idea, and someone can go and do it. So we just knew that we had to continue on this journey, and click was very much like I feel like it's my purpose, I feel like it's my passion, I feel like I've really found what is gonna make a difference in the world. And the first business just feels like a stepping stone into this one.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Amazing, yeah. And click is it is so purpose-driven. And what was the what was that light bulb moment again with Click? Like, was there a moment when you were traveling where you were like, wow, like we're literally here in the middle of nowhere and we can't meet anywhere. But was there a moment like that?

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Yeah, I think it was a build-up. So in London, I was going to every single female founder, networking event under the sun that I could find. I was spending like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday going for them, spending all this money and not really meeting the right people because they were so broad, they weren't niche, it was just so broad. Come, have drinks, there's a hundred people in a room, and see if you connect with someone. The chances of that happening are quite slim. You've got to talk to a lot of people to find the right person, unless it's more interest-based or niche focused. So I was going to all these events and I was like, I'm just not really meeting the right kind of people, and I didn't want to meet founders just to talk about business. Yeah, I wanted to meet founders that I could go for a coffee with on a weekend or go to a parties class with. I just wanted friends that were also founders. And then Jason was finding the same, he was going to loads of events. He was like, I just want to find guys that go watch the football with. Like it sounds so simple, but to actually meet people, especially in such a big city, is so hard. So there was that, and then we went away and we noticed that in Bali the community seems so big. So these communities are like it's like 300 people going for a run, going for a coffee afterwards, but it felt like such a chilled atmosphere. You're in a coffee shop, someone will come up to you and be like, Oh, what are you doing? What's your name? Where are you from? Like, you don't get that.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yeah, it's so different in London, isn't it? Someone talks to you and they're like, or you talk to them, and they're like, Yeah, what do you want from me? Like it's wild.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Yeah, it's crazy. So we had that, and then we noticed that there was a boom in community groups just in general. There was all your book clubs, run clubs, walk clubs. It was really popular to have hobbies again.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

And it was really cool to have a hobby. Like, if you think 10 years ago, if you went to a book club, probably wouldn't put it on your Instagram. But now, if you go to a book club or like a charm making class or like something, you want to put it, you want to showcase that you've been to these things. So it was becoming cool to do things again and these big group settings, but we realized that if you wanted to find a community, it was so difficult. So you're on social media spending way more time on your phone than you want to to find it. Then there's all these different platforms, channels, event ticketing platforms, chats everywhere that everything feels a bit disjointed and not whole. So we kind of put two and two together and was okay. We there's this bigger mission here of loneliness. Yeah, we're just struggling to meet people, mental health statistics are going up and up and up because we're so addicted to social media and so addicted to our phones. None of the platforms are doing anything to solve it. Then there's all these community groups, they don't know where they belong, they don't know where to go, they don't know how to market themselves, they don't know how to manage or monetize. We put two and two together and create this really authentic platform that leans into community but also helps and gives back to communities. So that's how it started was just that idea. And it I feel like it was a moment of loads of little things that built up to this big thing which we couldn't ignore. Yeah, whereas with the first business, it was like ding, light bulb, let's just go for it.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

So they're both very different ways of starting, which is nice though, because I feel like there are there's no like set way of doing it either. Like we were saying earlier with the whole you have to go to school and then uni and then get a job, like there's no actual proper way of going about it. So I think for like for anyone listening, it's nice because I hear so many people being like, I know I want to do something, but I don't know what it is, and like you say, it could it could just be a moment where you're like, Yeah, that is the exact thing, or it could just be oh, I'm noticing so many signs that kind of lead you to that path.

Building the product with no tech background

SPEAKER_01 20:15

And so then when you you had the idea, how what was that first step that you took? Like, what was the next move?

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Yeah, well, tech is the most important thing. So I think when you're starting a business, you've got to think about what the core is. It's either product or it's tech or it's a service. So for us, we knew we needed really good tech. I think we were quite lucky with the first business to learn a lot about tech, learn what to do, what not to do, what to do. Yeah, learn not what to do, but what you know I didn't do. Um, so we learned so much from that. We learned how agencies work, we learn what we needed to do for this one. So we were quite lucky that we already had some contacts that we could lean on. So we basically pulled together a deck. Jason designed some app screens, I designed a bit of a brand, we put it together, we basically showed all the people that we know. And one to get a bit of validation. Yeah. So we're like, what do you think of this idea? Do you think is any good? Because sometimes, like, you have this idea, but no one else might like it. It's true. And then it's like, what's the point in pushing for something that people don't think is genuinely a good idea? So one more like is this good idea? Two, it's like, how do we do it? And then three, it was like find the right people to help us build it. So the tech was the core, and that took us about six months to build from scratch, I'd say. And in that time, it was just planning. I feel like those early stages of business are so weird because you don't have anything to show for it. You have so many things to do, but they're all so random, you don't know where to start. So I think we were lucky to have the first business to know okay, these are the steps that we need to take. And because the first business was tech, it was quite relatable. Obviously, it's a very, very different market, but we knew that we needed to treat click as a marketplace. That's what worked well with the first business. Because for us, there's no point in having users on the app when there's no communities in advance to them to show him.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Whereas if there's communities and events on there, they can take time to get the users. They understand we can keep them happy in other ways. And that's how we did it with the freelance beauty professional business. Because we focused on the professionals first. And even if they weren't getting any work, we were like, okay, we'll send you some free products. Why don't you create some content for us? Why don't you come work at this event? So they felt like they were getting something out of it until we started building the customers up. So we knew to do that same model with Click. And I'm so glad that we did because now it means we've got this amazing kind of like ambassadors for Click, all these people that have been with us from the very beginning, they've been building their community on us for a while. They just love the mission so much. Whereas I think when you have a community, you start maybe like a WhatsApp group or a Facebook group, you don't get any support. There's no bigger mission to it. Like you don't really care about WhatsApp's mission. I probably don't even have a mission. It's like as many people as possible on the app. So it's like just being part of something. I feel like us being so prominent as founders and talking to these community leaders so they can become part of it too. I think that's what really helped us. So those early stages was making connections, speaking to communities, but also it helped us shape the app and what features that we needed because we're talking to the people that would actually be using it.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Yeah, it's perfect to get that like real-time feedback as well. Yeah. And so, what what do you think at that at the start was one of the hardest things to do? Like getting proof of concept, getting people on board with the mission. Was there any moment where you were like, that was really freaking hard?

SPEAKER_02 23:31

And oh, good question. We didn't really struggle with users at the beginning, which I look back and I'm like so grateful for that. Because that is one of the hardest things, and that was probably the biggest stress. It's like we've got this waiting list, we've got these people, but they're actually gonna download it.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

And I think that's proof in how necessary and needed it is, in that people were just there ready to join because they need this.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

Exactly, and it proves that what you're doing is a good idea and it's what people want. I'd say the hardest bit was the people. So at the beginning, we hired someone to build the tech that wasn't a right fit. Interesting. And I think that really changed the dynamic of the business. We didn't use an agency at the beginning, we found someone that was like a standalone freelance developer, was gonna come on board and potentially be like our CTO. Right. Which at this stage of the business, you don't you don't need a CTO, it's just a title, like Jason's CEO and I'm CMO we've got CTO, like it doesn't mean anything when you're all sat around your kitchen table, really. It's just for show in a way. But we're like, okay, we'll give someone a really fancy title, they'll be really on board with the mission, but it just wasn't a right fit for us, and it took up a lot of headspace, and it's very hard when you've got someone in the business to then be like, We want to get rid of them, how do we do it? How are they feeling? What's going on? It was very much a mutual decision in the end for both of us, which was good. But I'd say for about two months' time, it really caused a stress on us, and the tech is the product, so we didn't have a tech, we didn't have anything, yeah. So we kind of had to keep him really happy for him to build this tech in the right way because he could pull the plug tomorrow because he has all the controls of it. So I'd say that was probably the biggest stress, and I think to be honest, he didn't really understand the rest of the business, so he thought tech was it, but we're like, No, we're marketing, yeah, everything else, partnerships, all of these are so important. Like, you're not gonna get the users without this, exactly. And I think he didn't realise that we would get so many users in them early days, which then started to crash the app because there was too many people on there, which is quite stressful for him. He thought it'd be a slow burner and he could like deal with it slowly, but it was like bam, we've got 10,000 users and the app's crashing every single day. We need to do something about this, so it was very high pressure, and when there's only three of you, it is quite tough.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah, I can imagine. How did you deal with that like conversation? Was it? I mean, at the end it sounded like it was mutual, but it was an ongoing thing for a while.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

There was yeah, a few arguments, a few not very nice messages, probably from both sides. Yeah, but it it's really hard, especially when it is your baby and you feel so passionate about it, and you've put all your time, your effort, or your money into it to have someone that's not aligned with that is very difficult. It was just a lot of tough conversations, and yeah, luckily in the end, it was mutual, and we went our separate ways and it was all good, and there was no issues afterwards, but you do have in the back of your mind like, what if this person comes back? Yes, what if no good yeah?

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Oh no, it's hiring the right people is something, isn't it? It's it's very I guess like make or break, isn't it? Because you can have you just need people who, like you say, get behind the mission that are they just want the best for you, and I feel like people who have that drive are usually very good at being entrepreneurs, you know, they're they're off doing their own thing, so like you give them a foot in the door, and perhaps they're then off being like, Oh, I can do this myself. So it's it's definitely tough to get the

Co-founding with your partner — the reality

SPEAKER_01 27:00

right people in. I want to ask about working with your partner. What's that like? Is it does it feel weird mixing business and personal life? Or I guess you've done it once before. Like, how's how's your working relationship and how do you manage being in a relationship and working together?

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Yeah, it's an interesting one because I don't I don't know many people. It's a very unique situation to have a business with your partner, but we've been together forever. So we went to the same school, we obviously travelled together for three years, lived in different countries together. So we've always done things together, we've always kind of been side by side and spent a lot of time together. Then with the first business, it was let's just try it, see what happens. And we learnt a lot about ourselves and each other in that moment. I think in relationships in general, you either grow together or you grow apart, especially when you get together so young at 17, 18, like your babies then you don't really know yourself and you don't know each other. But I think also with co-founders, you either grow together or you grow apart. I think me and Jason are very lucky that we're so life aligned, which makes business decisions so much easier. It's not like we've got to think about oh, if he wants to go do something to start a family and the I don't. Do you know what I mean? Which in co-founder relationships can be quite tricky when people have different life stages or responsibilities. We have exactly the same life. So it works really well for us. And yeah, the first business was like, let's figure out if this works, if it doesn't, it doesn't. We realised what our strengths are and what our weaknesses are. The first business, we probably did everything together, so we do every meeting together, a lot of calls together. I look back and I'm like, that was a waste of time.

unknown 28:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

But we were learning. We didn't really know. I didn't really know what I was good at. He didn't know what he was good at. Whereas with Click, now we have very separate roles. If we're both out and about for the day, we probably don't really speak to each other. We'll just catch up when we get home, we'll talk about the day. Very similar to kind of what you do if you had separate jobs, but it is it is intense in some ways, but we're not intense people. So I think because we are so calm and chill and relaxed, and we don't really let anything get to us too much, we never really argue about things. Yeah, we have like the odd disagreement, but then we're just like sweep under the road. Yeah, it's fine. But I think knowing that you're building something with someone is so powerful, yeah, and that you're on the same mission that's for both of your future, and that you're both so aligned is so like magical in a way. Definitely it's a weird one though, like we never switch off. So even when I got home last night and you're lying in bed and you're trying to go to sleep, and I'm like, oh my god, I forgot about this. And you're like, no, it's like midnight, like why? Why are we talking about this? But yeah, it does consume you, but it's handy that it consumes both of you, and you both live in the same house, so you can always chat to each other about things and you can get things off your chest, but it does mean that you don't really have like set relationship time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

I get that, and it's everything is mixed in with each other, and I guess that leads very nicely on to um do you think running

The personal cost of building a business

SPEAKER_01 30:01

the business has cost you anything personally in terms of maybe like finance or mental health or like personal life? Do you feel like there's things that you have to put to one side to for the greater good of the business?

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Yes, definitely, and it's something I've got more comfortable with. I think with the first business, I was so scared of missing out on plans with family, maybe I couldn't go on the holiday, maybe friends were doing something, going on a night out, whatever it is, and I didn't go, and I feel like I was constantly missing out. But I also think that that business wasn't what I was meant to do. Yeah. So that's why I was constantly feeling like I was missing out. Whereas now I don't feel like I'm missing out as much because I love what I'm doing. I love working, I love click, I love what we're doing, and having to cancel on a friend because of a meeting or something important, I know that the right people will understand. So it's fine. I know that they're not gonna hate me for it, they never will do. But knowing that like I'm working on click, I don't mind.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

So I do think I have my circles got smaller, yeah, definitely over the years, which I think probably happens naturally anyway when people are in different life stages and doing different things. But I think because I'm so focused on the business, I don't text my friends back in four days, all of these things, but they get it. Yeah, so it's fine. And then on the other hand, I do think it has cost, I wouldn't say mental health, I say there's definitely been things in there. Yeah, it is hard, it's really, really hard, it's relentless, it's emotional, it's a roller coaster. One day you're like, Woo-hoo, this is the best thing in the world. The next day you're crying in a corner over the litterless thing. Yeah, it does take a toll on you. But again, I'm very conscious of my well-being. I'm very conscious to take time out of the business, I'm conscious not to be on my phone too much, I'm conscious not to get too sucked into things, if something hasn't gone right, how do I just like not think about it? How do I let it blow over? All of this. Whereas with the first business, if someone said no to something, I would be distraught. I'd be like, What do you mean you don't want to do this? Like, do you hate me? Do you hate the business? But now it's like, no, I know that if someone does say no, it's fine, it's not for them. I just let it go. There's still times when things really get to me, but it's just learning to manage it, yeah. Which I do think comes with time and with confidence and with learning and just doing it more and more.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Definitely, yeah. I was gonna think about like how different we both probably were at the start of our journeys versus now in terms of just personal growth and confidence and like resilience, and I think it's yeah, it's uh it's learning, isn't it? It's just everyday learning, and it's it's something that I feel like so I was gonna ask you all like is there anything that you do to kind of become like more resilient? But I think like you said, it's just it's just taking the shit day by day and just learning how to deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Yeah, I think it is just by doing it, even on them days you really don't want to, you know, when you wake up in the morning, you really can't bothered, and you know you've got I don't know, a big investigal, it'd be so easy to be like, I'm so sorry, something's came up. Yeah, I'm gonna move this tomorrow. But just being like, no, I have to do it, even though I'm not feeling my best, even though I haven't washed my hair in a week, it's fine. All of these things, like, it's fine, just do it, just go and do it, and it'll build your confidence. And I think that's the main thing that click has done for me. And even the first place as well, is build my confidence. Before I went traveling, I was probably the shyest person ever. I wouldn't dare, like, I don't know, put myself out there. I was scared to like ask for something. I was so reserved and so shy and thought I would never do anything. And I think, like, look at me now, like, even just doing podcasts, all these things, public speaking, whatever it is. Even just building a business and putting yourself out there is hard.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

So I do think the thing that I'm most grateful for along this journey is building my confidence because I wouldn't have built it without what I'm doing now. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

I never would have guessed it because anytime I've ever met you, yeah, you're always just like you just seem like you've got so much confidence, and I I feel like it's just it's nice to hear that, and it's definitely like you know, confidence is a muscle, isn't it? I think it's nice to hear that people that you and maybe we get this as well, both being like prolific on social media, yeah, that people look at us and maybe assume about us that isn't necessarily true. I was gonna ask you the question like, what is an assumption people make about you that that isn't necessarily true? Yeah, which could be that, yeah. You're you were actually once a very shy person.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Yeah, and I still have those shy moments, it's still like you're the same person, it's just you've grown. And I always thought you were born with confidence in a way. I'm like, oh my god, why is that person so confident? And I also would mix confidence with arrogance. So we're like, oh my god, they're so cocky, like that's horrible. Or really they'll probably just really show themselves and confidence, yeah. And you can be confident in so many different ways, you can still be confident and a really nice, grounded person. You don't have to be so show off. But yeah, I think confidence can be learned if you really want to learn it. Yeah, and it just takes time and it takes doing it, and it takes doing the hard things and building on it. Like the first time I even did a podcast, that's probably shaking. First time I did anything, it's probably petrified, but now it just comes easier, yeah, and that level just gets higher. Yeah, now it's not about the next level, the next level. What's next?

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Yeah, constantly what's next, what's next as a founder. No, I think that's incredible, and I feel like I always say this as well that like starting a business is just it's just a journey of self-discovery. Like it's amazing what we're doing with our businesses, but I think it's you you would just never learn the amount that you learn about yourself doing this because I always think, God, like if you and I just stayed in corporate worlds, we I would we would be completely different people, such different people.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

I do think, yeah, having your own business it gives you so much freedom, but also the pressure of that freedom is so high.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

So even like doing this today, I'll probably get

Founder confidence & self-discovery

SPEAKER_02 36:00

home tonight and feel guilty in some way because I've not been sat on the laptop relying to my emails. It's like the pressure of that freedom is really high because you're the only person that motivates yourself, you're the only person to set your own schedule and do your own things, which means that you could easily just swan around all day. Like I could go shopping if I wanted to, I could do whatever I want. Classes work, yeah, exactly. But the business isn't gonna move forward, and that's the price that you have to pay. Yeah, and also I think it's reframing what work is. So this is work, this is still definitely work, it's so true. But in the first business, I would never have thought this was work, I'd see this as social or something else and feel like awful doing it, but then you've got to reframe what that is to you as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

100%, yeah. Because like even when I came from working in corporate, yeah, the reframing that what is work, because like creating content is a big part of our jobs, like the marketing side of things is everything. Like you said earlier, like you wouldn't have had those 10,000 users if you didn't do the marketing right at the start. And I just remember thinking for the longest time, like, oh, like creating videos for TikTok is not work, yeah, but like it is, it's just different work to like what we've been conditioned to think what is work, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Yeah, work isn't sat in meetings from 9 to 5 pm and not having anything done. Yeah, like workers doing things like this, doing creative things, even like when I go for a walk, I always have the best ideas. Yeah, I don't have ideas sat in front of the laptop. Yeah, seemed like this morning I had three ideas whilst I was washing my hair. I love that. Like, but if I'd sat in front of my laptop for that half an hour, like I probably wouldn't have had those ideas. You've got to take yourself away from what you're doing to have that creativity. Yeah. So also I do feel like having things like that within your work day, it's still work. It's one looking after yourself, but giving yourself the mental space in order to move forward.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Yeah, I think another uh nice question to ask on the back of that is how do you schedule your day? I mean, I know at the start you're like every day is chaos, but do you have any sort of schedule to your day? Do you just go at it and see what happens? Yeah, it's all very

Morning routines & how Nicola structures her day

SPEAKER_01 38:00

different.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Like every day is very varied. I'm really like passionate about my morning routine. You are. I am, I really am. I do think like everyone should try and do this, even if it's like 10 minutes, just don't look at your phone. Yes. Because as soon as you look at your phone, you see the notifications, you see the messages, whatever it is, you're sucked in and you can't get out of it. But just having that 10 minutes to an hour, whatever it is, whatever you can fit in and building it up, I think it's really important. And then you can do things within that time, like in the morning, I'll I know I'll journal, I'll have a cup of tea, I'll do my skincare, I might do a bit of yoga, I might go to the gym, all of these different things that actually make me feel good. Yeah. And then I know when I grab my phone or open the laptop, yeah, and we're like, oh, I feel relaxed to be able to take on the day. Because after that, you can't control what happens. I try and schedule like in-person meetings in the same days sometimes, so I'm not like here, there, and everywhere. We have team days like twice a week as well, so that's quite set. And then like work from home days, it's just normally do calls and just try and get stuff done. So I do feel like my weeks follow a bit of a similar pattern, yeah, but no days ever the same. Like August for me was so quiet for meetings. Yeah. And in my head, I kept thinking, like, what's going on? Why is no email me back? And why have I got no meetings? Everyone's on holiday or everyone's with their kids. It's a nice time, it's a really nice time, but it would stress me out. Yeah, so that was so different. And then September I know is gonna be like four power, like five, six meetings a day, hundreds of emails to reply to. Yeah, in my head, I was like, Is something wrong with the business? Because no one's replying to me. But then I realised what it was. I was like, No, I need to take this moment. Yeah. Because you're not always gonna have time like this, and it's such a blessing to have that time, have some downtime, yeah. But you could easily look at that as a negative, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

And how do you then deal with those like quiet periods? I know like August probably for everyone is quite a quiet period, but if there's ever time in the business where things do get a bit quiet, how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Yeah, I think I use it to work on things that I don't normally have the time for. You can be more creative and you can do that more deep work where you can sit down for a couple of hours and work on a certain project or whatever it is, try and get inspired. I try and like do research, that type of thing, or I like just look after myself a little bit. Like August probably been for a walk every day. I've probably been to the gym most of the time. I've managed to like cook really nice meals, a little bit more healthy, and it's not just rushing to get something, spent more time with friends, spent more time with Jason, FaceTime my mom, all these things that like when you've got a manic week, you can't do. So it's been nice to have that more of a free flowing, but there's been no structure, which I've struggled with a little bit. Yeah, whereas now it's like I've got more meetings, I know I can plan my day around certain things and certain things happening. Whereas before I'd wake up and I'd be like, right, there's nothing in my diary. Yes, what do I do today? But it's quite nice that you can, I don't know, do more content. Yeah, you can know, do different things that you wouldn't normally be able to do when you're jam-packed, you see. So it's just about like ticking, ticking things off, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

No, definitely. And then talking about content, I feel like you are leaning a lot into personal brand, and I'd love to hear more about that. Like, why did you make the decision to do that? And yeah, how how has that been?

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Yeah, I was very scared at the beginning, so it's probably a year ago Jason was saying to me, like, you need to do more content, you need to do more personal brand stuff. And I was like, No, I'm okay. And for months and months and months, I was like, No, that's not me, I don't want to do that. And then I don't know, one day it just kind of clicked in me that no, I need to do this. I don't know what it was. It was probably that again seeing so many people doing music like you and your content, all these people just like forming this network of people that I admire but are also friends, and seeing them doing it and being like, okay, if they can do it, I can do it. It's not that scary. And I think the more you see something, the more you can like put it into your own reality, in a way. So one day I was like, right, okay, I'm gonna do it. And I think I set myself a bit of a challenge, and I was

Building a personal brand as a founder

SPEAKER_02 42:01

like, This month I'm gonna try and post on a channel every single day. So it could be LinkedIn, it could be Instagram, or it could be TikTok, and I just did that and like tried to figure out what worked and what didn't, and still very much like post like personal things, so like I don't go out for dinner, being with my friends, because I think people also want to see non-business content, they want to see that you have a life, yes, and that you do things. It doesn't need to be all of this, like really educational sitting in front of the camera talking videos all the time. It can be like, Oh, I don't know, I find this really cool restaurant. Like, people just want to know more about you, and then I want to realize like what actually really worked. I could put together a bit of a strategy in my head, and now I think I know like what I need to post. Yeah, I don't need to sit and think about it, I know what does well, and I know what's probably not gonna get that much engagement, and sometimes like it's not even about the engagement. Like, if I really want to post something, I'm not gonna be like, oh, this might not get many likes or whatever, just post it and see. But it has helped click so much. I was gonna ask. It really has.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

What what have you seen? Have you seen any unexpected like benefits from the back of it?

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Yeah, definitely. I'd say just more brand awareness, more people knowing about Click and what it does. Just being more of a face of the brand, people come to you with things like I get random DMs of people telling me like how Click changed their life.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

You need to post more about that right now.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

It's such a lovely user experience. It is amazing, or people will just DM me and say, like, I just want to let you know that like your customer service from the team has been amazing. I just wanted to let you know. Like, if I wasn't a face of the brand, people wouldn't message me. So I get to see so much more as well, and that's so rewarding and gives me goosebumps every single time. Like when someone sends a DM. But I think it just it helps to elevate the brand, it makes it more personal, it makes it more relatable, people want to be part of it more, people on board with your story, it brings in a different audience, and I think it goes hand in hand, like people. People see Click and then they find me. Yeah. Or people find me and then they find Click. And it's nice because Jason and me have got very different roles. So we can put out very different content and it appeals to different people. So we can really lean in on that male-female energy as well, which is quite good. But yeah, it's massively helped. And I really enjoy it. That's the main thing. I think I was so scared at the beginning because one, I was scared of what people would think. Yeah. Two, I thought it'd be rubbish at it.

SPEAKER_03 44:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

And three, I thought it'd be like a chore that I didn't want to do. Yeah. And now I've realized that people probably don't hate me. Like it's just content. It's really just content. I do have the time to do it. And I actually really enjoy it. It makes it so much more natural when you do do it. Yeah. There's still what loads more that I want to do, and there's still things that I don't have time to do. But it's learning. It's always the way.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Yeah, it's always the way. And and is there anything, I mean maybe this would be one of them, but is there anything that you wish you did more at the start of building click? Do you know what I mean? So like starting a personal brand. I mean, I know for me, I'm like, oh, I wish I'd started a personal brand sooner. Yes. Is there anything else that you're like, oh, having known that I that that is great now, I wish we just implemented that sooner?

SPEAKER_02 45:07

Yeah, definitely the personal brand. I love this whole like building in public type of thing before people have even launched. Yeah. Taking people behind the scenes because there were so many cool things that we were doing and so many like scrappy things as well that people would have loved to see. What was the scrappy stuff? I want to hear. Just like when you're figuring stuff out and you don't have a clue what you're doing. Like the first version of the app, I look back at it and I'm like, oh my god, it was awful. We need to see this.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

This needs to be a video for us.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Yeah, definitely. Because it would have like three features, it was very, very basic design. It looked like a website on a phone. Like it didn't look like an app. But again, we just wanted to get out there quickly and see who used it. But like getting to that stage, there was just so many like things that would happen that would go wrong, and like we'd meet someone they promise us the world, and then we'd get ghosted, or like the guy that we hired that wasn't the right fit, yeah, just like putting a trust in people and not working out, or just like making really stupid decisions and mistakes, and then being like, I can't believe I did that. There's so many things, and I love when I look at brands that haven't launched yet, or they're really early stage and they talk about these things because it makes it feel so much more real. Yeah. So I wish we'd have done that in the beginning, and I think I would have been so much more confident now if we started six months, twelve months ago. But in a way, you've got to be grateful for what you do. Yeah, no, exactly because it brings you where you are today.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Exactly, and like everything for a reason. And I'm such a believer in there's a time and a place for everything. And whenever I catch myself thinking, oh, I wish I'd done that sooner, is I actually know, because like you say, there's a reason why this has happened, and there's a reason why like everything's happening now in the way that it is, but I think it's definitely good to take into any next future business or for anyone listening to take into your business now is to start thinking about these things at the start. Um, so following up on from kind of just

Biggest mistakes — the student market pivot that didn't work

SPEAKER_01 47:00

being scrappy at the start and making mistakes, was there any moment that you can look back on now and be like, and think at the time it felt like that was the right thing to do? But actually looking back, you were like, wow, like that really wasn't. And I mean, I guess hiring the wrong person is probably one of those that you needed to hire someone and it turned out to be wrong. But is there are there any other moments where you're like, I really that felt right, but now I look back and I'm like, why did we do that?

SPEAKER_02 47:24

Yeah, at the beginning we thought students would be a really big market for us. So we started reaching out to universities, reaching out to societies, speaking to loads of students, and we probably spent a couple of months doing that, really building these connections because we just felt like that was the perfect audience to launch it into. It made sense, they have societies, they're looking to meet new people, all of that kind of thing. So we had done all this groundwork and then it got to launch, but it was later than Freshers Week. So Freshers Week had already happened, I think, even like two or three weeks. So where I bought tech delayed all the time. I would never ever say a date for a tech release because it's never gonna happen. Never ever. If it does, it's a miracle, it's causing you stress, is what it is. Literally, I'm like, it's gonna launch on the 14th. No, it's absolutely not, it's gonna be a weekly, like, just don't give a date. Um, so we were gonna launch, yeah, before Frash's Week. It was very, very delayed. End up launching after Frash's Week, and went back toward these people that we'd spoken to. They were signing up, but we weren't getting the traction that we thought we were, we weren't getting the groups created that we thought we were, we thought the societies would start creating their groups, and the people that were creating the groups were creating groups like Run Club in Manchester, Girls Who Walk, all of these things because they wanted things to do outside of the university. So they wanted to find societies that just go to their local university website or whatever it was, or the university Instagram, they had all that already, and with universities, it's very, very difficult because the university controls a lot of it. So to start a society, you have to go to the university, you have to fill out the paperwork, and they tell you what platform to use. So you kind of have to infiltrate with the university, which is very difficult because they're quite stuck in their ways and quite old school. Yeah. We did have a couple of universities that said they were gonna launch with us, but then they just never did again. Ghost us, where do people ghost to the west? Um, so we were like, right, okay, let's follow these trends of what's happening. It is people creating groups just in the cities, it is everyday people that just want to meet other people, it doesn't have to be students. So then we started going after communities that already exist and finding these walking groups, running groups, book groups that weren't university focused, and that's when we got the mass amount of users, that's when we hit 10,000 users really quickly. And I just think imagine if we stuck with that university group, we would have been banging our head against football for weeks. I think we did it for four days, and then we're like, no, that's changed this, it's not working, we've not got the traction we thought we would. This wait list isn't going anywhere. Let's pivot. And now I'm so glad we did.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

And I think that's such an important reminder to pivot quickly. Like, if things aren't going the way you want them to, what can you do differently? Yeah, and yeah, I think that's I I feel like so many brands or businesses just flog a dead horse for a very long time because they're like, Nope, this will work, and it's like, actually, no, like look at the data, like so. All you can do is look at the data, and for you guys, what the data was showing was like, No, it's not students, like, we need to go for this other group of communities.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

Yeah, and I also think like your gut is the strongest thing, like you've got feeling. Oh, yeah. If you know something's not gonna work and you feel it in your gut, like don't keep trying because you're just wasting your time. It really is the most powerful part, yeah, your body that you should always listen to. Like, you know, when you meet someone and you've got a weird feeling, like don't yeah, you shouldn't go there. Even if your head's telling you, even if everyone around you is telling you, if you've got that gut feeling, I just don't think you should do it.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

I agree, and I feel like it's I never want to be like, oh, really woo-woo, but I do feel like running a business, like you do have to tap into a little bit of spirituality. Like you were saying earlier with like the manifestation and like creating that life that you've dreamed of, and I think it's yeah, it's you know, it's that deep gut feeling. You know, like deep down, and it's like that whole everything will happen when it needs to happen, and and knowing that those steps that you're making are slowly getting you to wherever it is you're going, even if you don't know that's where you're supposed to be going.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

Exactly. It's having that trust, isn't it? Then in like the universe, yeah. Having that trust that no matter what you do, like your path is there, yeah, and you'll find it. It might be hard, like the universe is gonna test you with certain things, but they only test you when you're ready for it. Yeah, for sure. I think you've got to be open to that journey, and I think you do just have to let things go. Yeah. Sometimes, sometimes when you're waiting for something and it's just like so intense and you can't stop thinking about it, it's not gonna happen. You do just have to let it go. You let it come to you in business.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Yeah, no, I I definitely agree with that. Um, and I guess like imposter syndrome talking about that. Have you ever felt any imposter syndrome? I mean, firstly, being like a young female founder in tech is probably not that heard of in an industry. How have you navigated that?

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Yeah, I think being

Fundraising as a female founder in tech

SPEAKER_02 52:00

a young female founder in tech has been a bit of a superpower because there isn't many people. So, in a way, building like the more personal brand stuff has felt quite easy and natural. I'd say it's been hard in the investment world, interesting. Yeah, because you know all the stats like less than 2% of funding goes to female founder businesses, all of that kind of thing. So, in your head, you've already got these stats in there. Being like, Well, what's the point in trying? Yeah, you're not gonna get investment. Like, you've got to get past that barrier first, and then getting in the right rooms sometimes can be difficult. I do think you do have to be persistent, and I do think it is changing. More people are wanting to support female founders, and there's more female investors now, and all these things, and that's the only way you change it, isn't it? By doing these things yourself. But I do think sometimes you are looked down on by men in tech if you're not technical. And technically, me and Jason aren't technical, Jason's not technical either. Everything he's done, he's learnt himself, he's built the whole product himself, he's designed it all himself, he works with the developers and he does all of that. It's incredible himself without any tech experience. And you don't need to be technical to run a tech company.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

The thing is, yeah, and I guess the thing is that you don't, it's the classic case of being in business is that you hire the people in the skills that you're not very good at. So you and Jason are very good at building brands, you're build good at building community, whatever your flaws are or not your strengths, you can hire people for that. And that's the beauty of running a business is that as long as you've got those those strong ideas and you know where it needs to go, yeah, you bring people along who who can help you do that. But then I guess maybe from a um investment perspective, yeah, that does change the narrative slightly.

SPEAKER_02 53:47

Definitely, but we always say like founders aren't gonna be the ones that are developing. No, no, they won't have time to do absolutely need to hire the technical people and you need to be one that works on the business, not in the business, and I think finding the right investors like we've been very lucky to find the right investors that understand that and know that we're gonna hire someone technical and that our skill sets have got us where we are today. Like, again, you can't build a product and not have any marketing or anything behind it. So I do think that that's kind of helped us in a way, yeah. But the imposter syndrome does sometimes come in when you're sat in a room of investors and people are like questioning you on these little things, and you're thinking, God, I have no idea. But you just come up with an answer in your head and you just wing it and yeah. Being imposter is good though. Yeah. So yeah, there's this quote about imposter syndrome, and it is if you're not feeling like an imposter, then you're not in the right rooms because you're not around people that are doing better than you, you're not around people that you can learn from, yeah, and then you're not growing. So if you don't feel like an imposter, then you're probably the smartest person in that room and you're not learning anything. Yeah. So actually being an imposter is a good thing because you're growing as a person, even in that moment, it feels awful, and you think, oh my god, I know absolutely nothing, and why am I in this room?

SPEAKER_01 55:01

It's a good thing because you can learn from the people around you. And that's when you need the confidence to then be like, nope, I belong here. And yeah, and and and if there's ever a question you ask and you're like, I don't know the answer, yeah. It's okay not to know the answer sometimes. It's okay to be like, Do you know what? It's a great question. I'll come back to you, I'll circle back to you on that one.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

Literally, you don't you really don't need to know everything. And I think people appreciate that. So no one wants you to just pretend that you know everything, but if you're in a meeting, you don't know what something means, and I'm like, What do you mean? Yeah, they actually are like, Oh, okay, like I'll tell you, I'll help you. Everyone wants to help. That's something else that I've realized along this journey. Like, everyone is willing to help. Yeah, at the beginning, you think, like, why would anyone help me? Everyone's so like keeps things to themselves, keeps their network to themselves, but people are actually really nice. Yeah, people will help you if you ask.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

Definitely, and I think that's an such an important thing to remember as well, is to just ask. Like, I think so many founders feel like, oh, I I have to do this on my own, and like you say, no one's gonna help. And it's the amount of people that like I I'm very happy to help in my deal. Yeah, that's what I mean. It's like I'm more than happy to if I can I will, like, yeah, I think it's something that we need to do more of is be more bold and brazen and just knock on the door and ask. Yeah, exactly. I think it's I think it's a very good quality to have. So, um, final question I'm gonna ask you about the messy middle parts of building a business. Um I'm gonna choose which one I like actually. Oh no, I do this one, okay. Looking back, what was one thing that nearly broke you starting the business, or either business actually, that you realise it's actually made you a stronger person now?

SPEAKER_02 56:41

Oh that's a tough one. That's a very tough one. What nearly broke it? Yeah, was there a moment when you where you were like, this is it, this is over, or a really testing time in your relationship with Jason, or yeah, I'd say the first business there was a really testing

The hardest moment — when Jason almost quit

SPEAKER_02 57:00

time where we couldn't raise investment before we got that offer, and Jason was gonna quit. So Jason was like, I just can't do it anymore, like I really can't do it. And I had to be that person to be like, you know, let's just keep going. It would have been so easy for me to turn around and be like, okay, let's not do it. It's so much easier to quit sometimes than it is to keep going, and that's the scariest thing. And it was so scary to be like, no, we're gonna move past this and move forward. And then we got the investment the next week. So this was, I think, like the Saturday. We'd go on this big walk and near our parents' house in the woods, just get out. It was like an hour walk, you wouldn't see a soul in the countryside, and he was like, I can't do it, I can't do it. And I was like, No, keep going, keep going. You can do this, you can do this. Like, we're gonna love it when we do it, like just give it another week. And yeah, and that Monday we had an offer, and the Wednesday we had an offer, and then the Friday we had an offer. And I think again, it's like the universe testing things at you to see if you do really want it, yeah, and then it actually rewards you in the end. But it would have been so easy to quit that. Yeah, so easy to quit.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

And and if you had that opportunity wouldn't have come around. Exactly. I love it, that's incredible because I genuinely feel like, as well, there's so many times where, like you say, like if you had just quit, where would you be now? Like, you wouldn't, and it's it's almost like you never know what's round the corner. And I that's ever that is literally like my north start with running the brand. I don't know if it's the same for you. Yeah, when like shit gets really testing, it's like, but yeah, there might be something waiting around the corner that I just don't know yet. Like it's gonna be an email or it's gonna be someone reaching out, whatever it is, and I feel like you just like you say, like you need that faith and that yeah, trust in the process that like it everything will be okay, and you're deserving of it, and the universe will provide.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

Yeah, you're literally like one email away from the best or worst thing happening to you. Yeah, you never know, and I think that's the risk of a business. But we always say when you're going through those awful, awful testing times, it means that something bigger is coming along, and it always happens the next day or the next week, you're like, Oh my gosh, like why was I so down the dumps about this? Like, look what's happened now. Like it all makes sense. Yes, it does. In hindsight, it all makes sense all the time, yes, not so much, but in hindsight it does.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

Always hindsight, yeah, it's 2020, isn't it? And so if click disappeared tomorrow, not that it's going to, I promise it won't. What's one thing that you learn, what that you've learned from building the brand that like no one can take away from you?

SPEAKER_02 59:30

Oh gosh. I think just how much people need it, how much people do need community and need connection. Yeah, like we've seen the difference that it's made already, and we're just a small piece at the moment, and we've seen like people's lives has changed, and when you see someone walk into an event and they're really shy and they're really nervous, and you see them walking out like giggling with a new best friend, like all of these things, like people really need this, and that's what drives me. Like, obviously, not doing it for free, like you want financial success out of it.

What actually drives her

SPEAKER_02 1:00:02

But what drives me is seeing the lives that we're changing, yeah, and I think money will always come if you're actually doing something that fuels your passion and doing something that's gonna change people and change the world, then money will always come in some form, but like just knowing that people are actually making friends and pushing themselves out of the comfort zone and becoming like whole new people, yeah, because of click. I think that's what's the most powerful.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

I love yeah, I love that so much. It's actually really touching. Get emotional a lot about it. Honestly, there is, I just think it's it's so wild how we've ended up in a society that is so hyper connected but so like disassociated with with personal physical connection. It's really it is mad. So it's it's it's just yeah, it's I think it's nice to hear like the passion and the and the purpose and the need for it. Yeah. Um so then what's the kind of like the end goal with Clik or what's the what's the greater goal, I guess obviously, for everyone to live a happy life?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:05

Literally, yeah, we just we want Clerk to be a household name that the first thing you think of when you think of community or you think of meeting new people or even starting something yourself is coming to Clerk. We kind of want to be the Facebook, yeah. That's what we want to be, is like the new wave of Facebook where it's all about because social media now we're just watching other people. Instagram, TikTok, watching other people. It's not about connection, we don't speak to anyone. Whereas Facebook was the only platform that we had that we actually spoke to the people and we connect with new people and like from different schools and that type of stuff. So we want to be like the new Facebook for the new generation, but it's all about in person, it's not about someone sat there scrolling their phone, it's like, how do we get people out? Like, we want to walk through Hyde Park and we see all these run clubs and we see all these book clubs, walk clubs, whatever it is, and they're all on click. Yeah, we want to I want to be sat on the tube and on a turnaround and I want people to be on click, like organizing a meetup or like chatting with someone. That's like the goal, obviously.

Advice for founders & what's next for Clic

SPEAKER_02 1:02:00

A future goal, potentially an acquisition further down the line, but it would have to be someone that was really aligned with us. But yeah, we just want to grow it, want to be worldwide, we want to be no matter what city you go to, you can go on click and you can find a case.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

I love that. And so it's not is it UK all of UK, all of the cities, some in Australia and some in the US. Wow, oh amazing. And who's expanding you out in the US and Australia? Is it yeah? Obviously, you guys, but is it your how are you doing that though?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:27

So, yeah, we've pretty much done it with just the team we have now and just calls, speaking to people on calls. Someone from the UK moved to Australia and started a community out there because they already knew about click. And then it started to go like a little bit viral, people were talking about it. Then we were getting like users signing up in Australia and seeing the trend, and then we were getting communities DMing us, being like, Oh, I've seen Click, what's this? So that was really organic, and then just started doing calls with people whilst we're here in London with people in Australia and just getting them to come on board. Like, we don't need our physical presence in the country for it to work, but we do want to start to scale teams out there at some point in the future and yeah, go over there ourselves and do like a bit of a launch and stuff, so that'd be really exciting. But at the moment, it kind of just grows organically in different places and we can manage it from where we are now. Because I think with with dating apps, you need millions of users in a small area for it to work. So you've got to match with people, demographics, yeah, but the community app, we don't really need that because if you're part of if you're in Sydney and you're part of your run club and your book club, you don't really care about anything else on the app, you only care about that. Yeah, so we can build these like niche micro audiences in different areas, and then we get like the network effects of it spreading on itself.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

I was gonna say, yeah, it's almost like a snowball effect of yeah, people then start talking about it, and oh like I'm doing a book club and it's send you the link to it and then you sign up. Yeah, it's it's a really it's a nice um, I guess like cost acquisition experience as well, because it's just like you say, it's so organic. Yeah, brilliant. Um, okay, final question is what's one thing that you're most excited about right now? Oh, okay. What am I most excited about? And I feel like it can be anything actually. We don't have to make this business. Oh, my mind just goes straight to business. It can be business too, though. It can be business too. We're hiring. No way. Yeah, who are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:15

I did want to ask you who your next hires is. So tech. I'm gonna bring someone technical in-house and then marketing and partnerships.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

Amazing. So that's really exciting.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

It's been, yeah, small team of us for a while. So it's nice to be able to bring new people in fresh ideas, fresh people, grow the team, and just yeah, get more people on board. So that's what I'm most excited about. We've had some amazing people like apply, and it's just really exciting to see where it could go and who it could be. So yeah, I'd say that's what I'm most excited for.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

Oh, I love that. Big things to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:46

Oh, scary, big girl things.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

Yeah, big girl things, but no, you're far more than capable to pull it off. So yeah, I'm excited for you. Well, thank you for being here today. Um, one thing I will ask is where can people find you and how can they sign up and join Click and join the communities?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:02

Yes, so we'll just click on App Store and Google Play Store, so you can download the app and then you can find the different communities and events of nature of interest on socials where find your click, and then my personal one is just Nicola Gunby.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

Awesome, and we'll tag that all in the caption as well. But yeah, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. Can't wait for everyone to listen.